TLW Toronto Tape Tree

Photos, links, media appearances.

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:11 pm

Wow. A lot of people are wanting to jump on late. Too bad we can't even get the small tree we started in order! But we definitely cannot take money for any of the discs. That's not only standard live trading protocol, but also a decree from King God himself.

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Postby brodie » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:13 pm

not money for the discs, money for the costs incurred in shipping, purchasing blank supplies etc.

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:27 am

It's generally unethical to accept money of any kind for live discs. Read over the thread and the links it contains for more information.

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Postby brodie » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:05 am

how would i go about getting the recordings than?

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:37 am

Ask if anyone's doing a B+P or wants to do a trade?

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Postby brodie » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:42 am

whats a B+P?


and does anybody want to trade? I'm not sure what I have to offer up but I'm sure we could reach an aggreement.

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Moni
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Postby Moni » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:45 am

sour29 wrote:It's generally unethical to accept money of any kind for live discs. Read over the thread and the links it contains for more information.


i think brodie meant an amount of money that just covers the cost of the blanks (and maybe the postage if you cannot send a SASE). i've done this before, and I don't think it's unethical. After all, you are not playing for the music, just for the material.

brodie, b+p means "blanks and postage". you send blanks and stamps or even better a SASE (self adressed stamped envelope) or money for the postage and get the bootlegs in return.

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:09 am

It's considered unethical amongst live trading communities, genreally speaking. Whether or not you agree with it or not is irrelevant to its roll in ethics. B+P's are the accepted form of trading with people who have nothing to trade. When SASE's cannot be sent, blank media is the form of payment. Which is what we've done in this tree, and it outlined elsewhere in the thread.

Basically, this is because if I buy a spindle of 50 cds for 10 bucks, each of those discs cost me 10 cents, right? But the retail value of one CD is usually around a dollar. Thus, most people will ask a dollar for each CD that is sent, rather than the price that was actually incurred during purchase of the bulk product. If that's the case, then you're making 90 cents in profit. Now, let's say you do this sort of a trade for more than one disc -- this tree for example, is five discs -- you would then be making $4.50 in profit. Now, let's say you made that trade three times. Now you're making $13.50. Get my drift?

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Postby zach » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:57 pm

sour29 wrote:if I buy a spindle of 50 cds for 10 bucks, each of those discs cost me 10 cents, right?


Wrong. I think your point is definitely still valid, but those discs would cost you 20 cents each.

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:03 pm

Haha. Thanks. My brother's the math wizard in the family. I have a bachelor of arts. Does it show? :$

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Postby brodie » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:38 am

Well, in that case, I'm willing to send B+P to anyone who would like to send me the discs! Just let me know how many discs you need exactly! BTW im based out of Guelph, Ontario so I figure someones probably pretty close to me.

Let me know if anyone wants to do this!
THANKS!

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Moni
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Postby Moni » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:28 am

sour29 wrote:Now, let's say you do this sort of a trade for more than one disc -- this tree for example, is five discs -- you would then be making $4.50 in profit. Now, let's say you made that trade three times. Now you're making $13.50. Get my drift?


Yep, I do. But now riddle me this: If postage would be let's say 4,-, how many blanks would I have to send if I could get a SASE? 4 CDs (that maybe only cost me 0,2 each)? 10 CDs (that would probably get my postage up to 6,-)?...

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:56 am

If you could get a SASE, you would only send the blanks for the music to be copied onto.

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Postby brodie » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:35 pm

anyone? please!

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Moni
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Postby Moni » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:29 pm

sour29 wrote:If you could get a SASE, you would only send the blanks for the music to be copied onto.


i know! but what if i cannot (and in fact, i really cannot)?

brodie, i'd like to help you, but first i'd have to get these things myself!

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Postby zach » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:35 pm

Moni wrote:brodie, i'd like to help you, but first i'd have to get these things myself!


I'm in this boat, too. Really, there are only a handful of people with them!

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:01 pm

Ah, your last message said "what if you could" and I thought "then you're fine!". If you cannot do a SASE, the community usually places an acceptable item of trade. As I'm mentioned, this is very rarely cash -- at least in the more developed ones (think Pink Floyd, Beatles, Grateful Dead) -- and is almost always blank media.

Some communities do a 2:1 ratio to pay for shipping: you double the amount of blanks, and the sender keeps half. Other communities place a subjective dollar amount per blank disc (as we did, here, on this particular tree). The problem with this second method is the fluctuation of blank media's value. The problem with both of these methods are the likelihood that you're going to be sent shitty no-name blank media that you'll never want to burn anything onto because one scratch and it's a coaster, and they end up sitting in a corner until you're desperate.

However, as flawed as blank media is for payment is, it's considered to be the most neutral of compromises. Seeing as exact shipping costs, plus envelope (plus local taxes), can be a difficult amount to determine ahead of time, any money that is sent is surely going to be a) not enough -- and thus you're losing money, or b) too much -- and you're making money at the band's expense (which is hella not-cool).

Furthermore, even if costs of postage and envelopes COULD be determined ahead of time, where does one draw the line? Is the person requesting the discs also responsible for the cost of travel charges the sender incurs from their house to the post office? It costs me $5.50 to take the bus to and from my post office: that's not a price, as a sender, I'd want to pay if I'm not getting anything in return (as you would in a trade). Or what about time? Should the person requesting discs not pay for the sender's time in copying the discs, repackaging them, and then making the trip to the post office? Or how about wear and tear on their computer system / burner laser? For me to burn 2 DVDs and 3 cds, it takes approximately 50 minutes. Is that time billable? Where are these lines drawn? Who decides? etc. etc.

So, as you can see, it's best is money is simply left out of the equation altogether. The problem left, then, is who decides what is traded for to receive the discs. My solution: I leave it up to you.

If someone requests a B+P from you, you make the rules. You can ask for a 2:1, or you can give them your arbitrary value for each piece of blank media -- and then they can either accept or deny your counter-proposal. You can even come up with your own solution not mentioned above. Be creative, but be honest! The only thing I request -- and it's a request echoed by John elsewhere on this message board -- is that money not be involved in trading of live Long Winters recordings.

The band has offered us the wonderful and distinct pleasure of freely recording and sharing their shows at no cost to us and no profit to them. This is not our right, but our privilege to be able to watch a live Long Winters dvd from the other side of the world, or listen to an audio recording of a show we attended. If the only thing we have to do to maintain this privilege is keep our money in our wallets and come up with other creative ways of sharing, then I think we're making off like bandits.

That being said -- back on topic of the original tree: The tree is done. As with all trees, they are limited time offers. They are meant to quickly and easily distribute a copy of a recording to a number of places to make them available for trades. If you missed out on participating in the tree, send out a couple of e-mails and see if you can't set up a trade with someone. Have nothing to trade? Ask around for B+P's or keep your eyes open for other trees. Can't find a B+P? Be patient.

Everything will find its way online sooner than later. I'm sure it will all even be hosted at my Long Winters HTTP site by the summer (if not spring). Good things come to those who wait. The first batch of people participating in the tree can attest to that. The second batch, although still waiting, will certainly be saying the same in a few weeks.

I'm actually a little disappointed this thread hasn't been home to a few reviews -- if not only about the discs, about the experiences (good and bad) of the tree. Is this something we should continue doing in the future? Is it too much hassle? Was it a blast waiting by the mailbox? Is it a bummer that we're sending digital files via snail mail? Does this experience make you more or less interested in participating in a lossless Long Winters community? etc. etc. etc.

OK, this may be the longest post in the history of the Salon, and without further adieu, I will step off my soapbox (at least for tonight)!

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Postby Liesbeth » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:42 pm

Because I couldn't send an SASE, I did a strictly non-money based trade (honestly) and it was very cool.

good sides of this tree: great music, great moving pictures!!

slightly scaring off sides of this tree: the lossless demands - if I had time I would love to help someone out who missed on the original tree, but I just cannot commit to all the demands in that respects (see earlier in this topic for details); plus this whole money/no money discussion. Surely if I had a five or ten dollar bill and would send that to cover for postage, and would tell the person to give any left-over money to a street musician that looked like they needed it, my conscience would be clear - whatever the lossless community would think about that.

and lastly: my advise to Sour is move closer to a post-office or get a bike. This is of course coming from someone who lives a five minute walk from one, and works almost on top of another one.

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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:42 pm

I live about 15 minutes walk from a post office, but I'll tell you straight -- in this cold, that's a walk I sure don't want to make. Anyone want to wait until July for their B+P? Cause that's about the next time I'll walk.

And a bike? Hardly the weather to do so, but if it was, the last bike I owned had what you might call a run-in with a speeding car. Yes, I was on the bike at the time. Yes, I'm in better shape than the bike. No, I'm not in a hurry to get it replaced.

I understand the concerns about the B+Ps. One thing that should have been stated before is that B+P's should be the exception, and not the rule. These are to get discs out there to make available for trade. To stimulate traditional trading -- not just within this community, but within other communities as well. But another reason why money is bad: currency conversation. Most places charge a premium to do the conversion, and that's more money out of someone's pocket. Another bad thing, since we're trying to keep the music as close to free as humanly possible.

Also, Liesbeth, I can't stress how easy it is to set up those programs "required" for lossless trading. Many of the programs are also under a megabyte, take up barely any system resources, and once set-up, need no maintenance to keep up. That's right: set up once, and then burn away like a lady possessed. In perfect quality, nevertheless! ;)

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Moni
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Postby Moni » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:14 am

sour29 wrote:Ah, your last message said "what if you could" and I thought "then you're fine!". If you cannot do a SASE, the community usually places an acceptable item of trade.


Oh crap, I'm sorry for that.
Thanks for your soapbox-reply, I can see where you're coming from now. And I agree that in a tree you need certain rules. I am just used to a different kind of trading; I've gotten many boots from people I barely know for free, without having to give them anything in return, and I have sent out some boots without asking for anything in return, that's why I am not that used to strict trading rules and counting every cent I spend on trades.


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