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Liesbeth
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Post by Liesbeth »

aj wrote: deal or don't deal and choose not to go. that's my attitude cuz that's how I deal with places that are really smoky. If I dont like something I just don't participate.

I would agree with you, if my health wasn't involved. And I'm not even talking about long-term effects, it affects me after about half an hour to an hour.

nwheather wrote:As for the argument about employees' health...I have worked in restaurants and bars across this nation, and I have met very few nonsmoking coworkers there. And again, they can work somewhere smoke-free if they so choose.

Funny thing is: our non-smoking law is about guaranteeing all employees a smoke-free environment, but this was pretty much the argument the bar lobby used and it worked.

Jeroen, if a venue had a non-smoking policy in the actual concert room, and smoking was allowed in the bar outside, or the hall or whatever, would that be enough? Then you could skip one song to have your cigarette, and enjoy the rest of the music in a wonderful clean-air environment. That's the fight I propose to fight, because I don't think a full ban is gonna make it in our consensus society.

As for meeting at a LW-gig, well, I survived 9 gigs in smokey venues so far and we'll declare a truce when it comes to it. But when I wanted to pull a similar 'two-nights-in-a-row' trick with The Bigger Lovers a fortnight ago, I decided against the second night for just this reason. And it sucks.
So I propose to change things before TLW come over again, I warn you!
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aj
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Post by aj »

Liesbeth wrote:I would agree with you, if my health wasn't involved.


this seems to be a bit of a scapegoat for people. really, honestly, doesn't it just come down to the fact that it is irritating and annoying and inconvenient and you just plain don't like it. you can throw the health thing in because it makes your argument more valid than saying "ew. I don't like it. I want to stay here and I want you to not do that while I'm here because it bothers me." cuz really, I don't know anyone who doesn't knowingly do things that are bad for their health. I'm sure there are occasions in which you put your health at risk and it will have / may have much greater consequences than being in a smoky room for 2-3 hours one night a week or so.

and you may say, "yes, but when I put my health at risk, it is my choice to do so."

well, 2nd hand smoke is your choice too. unless someone has kidnapped you, tied you to a chair, and stands around smoking in the same room as you, it is your choice to stand there, be there, etc. it sucks that you want to be there and don't want to deal with it, but man, life just sucks a fair amount of the time. its how you deal and the choices you make.

and really, I'm not sure why I'm spending so much time on this topic.

good luck with your ban. this thread makes me want to go out and buy a pack, but maybe I'm just going through a rebellious phase. I really think there could be a ventilation compromise and I really think its not too expensive for many places, but they're not going to do it if people don't fuss about it. if they lost business then they would consider it. but the majority of bar owners I have known have been cheap and terrible people who won't do something like that just because it would make patrons more comfortable. can't we all just get along?

p.s. I left a place early last night and the fact that it was incredibly smoky played a part.
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Moni
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Post by Moni »

they can work somewhere smoke-free if they so choose.

I seriuosly doubt that everyone can make such a choice so easily.
And I don't know what exactly that study is about, but second-hand smoking isharmful. I think there's more than just one study to prove that.

aj wrote:and you may say, "yes, but when I put my health at risk, it is my choice to do so."

well, 2nd hand smoke is your choice too. unless someone has kidnapped you, tied you to a chair, and stands around smoking in the same room as you, it is your choice to stand there, be there, etc. it sucks that you want to be there and don't want to deal with it, but man, life just sucks a fair amount of the time. its how you deal and the choices you make.


I think you should be able to "take" a certain amount of smoke when you go to a bar/restaurant/show etc., but sometimes it'd be really awesome if smoking people would show just a little common sense.
For example, I went to see Now It's Overhead, the room was crowded, I was hardly able to move, and the genius next to me has to get out one fag after another, disposing the ashes on my pants and everywhere. What the hell is wrong with those people? And I've encountered similar stuff many times already.
Some people who smoke are actually quite obliging about their habit, and some are just reckless jerks.
Last edited by Moni on Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by sean »

i remember when john and i were playing a show in koln in a tiny room with poor ventilation and everyone there was smoking fiendishly (myself included, jr excluded). i mean you almost literally would have had to crawl around on your belly to escape the visible and smellable clouds of monoxide. there was nowhere to be without being basically engulfed by smoke. as i happily smoked grit after rich belgian grit, i recall having a very clear vision of the future, maybe 30-40 years hence, of my (imaginary) grandchild asking me, "grandpa, is it true that people used to pay money to stand in rooms and just breathe one another's smoke?" and i would say, "well, sometimes we would listen to music, too..."

i quit not long after.

at the risk of being pious/pompous, smoking in public is a heavy imposition on other people. i feel fairly certain it will be banned, or at least heavily restricted, in public enclosures within the civilized world, in our lifetimes. i don't think it should be restricted legally, but in public rooms--especially those without ventilation--i just don't think there's a valid argument that it doesn't impinge upon other people's basic liberty to force them to breathe foul air as a price for being included in nightlife. and while i support an SUV ban generally, i haven't noticed them causing too big a problem inside rock clubs. i'm not saying people shouldn't be able to smoke. i'm just saying there should be little special areas for them to smoke in. little camps. like concentration camps.

also, cancer. and the AIDS.
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Post by anthropomorphizing_kitty »

aj wrote:
Liesbeth wrote:I would agree with you, if my health wasn't involved.


this seems to be a bit of a scapegoat for people.

I don't think that it's so much a scapegoat as it is that it is relatively new information that 2nd hand smoke is as or more dangerous than smoking itself. That and the fact that society marches toward being ever more ultra paranoid, germ-a-phobic, sanitation-obsessive, etc. etc.
Last edited by anthropomorphizing_kitty on Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by heather »

sean wrote:also, cancer. and the AIDS.


ye gods, THE AIDS.

i honestly try and make an effort NOT to smoke during shows. but hey, if i get a "nic fit" or i'm hella drunk or hella hella blazed and i want to smoke, who the fuck are you to tell me not to? it's not that bad here in seattle. not at all. it's all good to be passionate about something [like not smoking in venues] but when you come across as "high and mighty" you might as well piss off.

/my pseudo-serious two cents.
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MoxieVoxie
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Post by MoxieVoxie »

heather wrote: but hey, if i get a "nic fit" or i'm hella drunk or hella hella blazed and i want to smoke, who the fuck are you to tell me not to?


Hmmm..."high and mighty" comes to mind.



PS: I hope your post was a joke
Last edited by MoxieVoxie on Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Betty Felon
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Post by Betty Felon »

Ahhh...cigarettes, how much a HATE YOU. See all these lovely, agreeable people fighting about you? Why are you so evil?

Cigarettes are my enemy. I love to smoke, but spend a good deal of my life quitting. I don't want to support banning smoking in places a rocknroll as rock venues, because that's just not punk. But I also hate that some of my friends are so sensitive to cigarette smoke that they get physically ill, for the whole next day sometimes. Yes, they can choose to not go...but that totally sucks for them to miss a show they want to see. And it sucks for me because I can't hang out with my kickass friend.

But then again, non-smoking places always remind me of highschool auditoriums or family oriented restaurants. barf.

I'm all turned around on this issue. DAMN YOU CIGARETTES!!!
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MoxieVoxie
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Post by MoxieVoxie »

You see this? It's about the size of a cigarette burn wouldn't you say? You see, this is what you get in my house for spilling paint in the garage.
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Liesbeth
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Post by Liesbeth »

aj wrote:
Liesbeth wrote:I would agree with you, if my health wasn't involved.


this seems to be a bit of a scapegoat for people. really, honestly, doesn't it just come down to the fact that it is irritating and annoying and inconvenient and you just plain don't like it.

NO it's not about irritating and shit.
I've been there and taken it, and never ever, ever spoken out about it.

But I'm beyond that now, and I am speaking out about it, and thanks a million for basically telling me I'm a whining fraud.
Please note that I have not told anyone that they should quit smoking (although if I know you personally, and care about you, I will try to get you to give it up - don't worry that I will do that to you, because right now I don't like you very much).

The thing is, I think there are more people like me who don't go out much anymore because of the smoking, and don't want to say anything about it because of the 'don't fucking tell me I cannot smoke' attitude of some smokers.
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aj
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Post by aj »

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I was not very clear. I am not personally attacking you. and my "you's" were not so much for you, Liesbeth, but for that general idea and all the "you's" that hold that idea.

and I still like you. same as I did before. and I do like to argue. but I don't like to hurt people. I am sorry if I hurt you and you felt attacked.


I think we're making this a much bigger issue than it is and there are probably other causes to fight about. I imagine we'd probably be on the same side for many of them. and I won't smoke while we fight them, if it really means that much to you.
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Betty Felon
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Post by Betty Felon »

no fighting, no biting!

aj, sweetieboots, I know how much it is to give up to not be able to smoke at a rock show. It's certainly hard to adjust to going to a place to relax and only being partially satisfied with the experience. But people DO get really sick being around smoke. And they have to take it home with them in thier hair and clothes. And when it comes to dealing with a little irritation, the same argument could be made for the smoker having to go outside.

I want to add that being considerate and polite to others is not something to just blow off. I enjoy the company of people like Liesbeth and it concerns me that thier experience is lessened AND they may feel ill.

I'm not sure, however, that politeness should be legislated ...though it certainly seems that that's the only way that anyone bothers thinking about it.
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Post by Betty Felon »

ah, you posted before I was finished. haha. I hope everyone is all better now.
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LoveSickJerk
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Post by LoveSickJerk »

Quick! Everyone over to the Camper Van Beethoven thread! While we're all still smiling!
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heather
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Post by heather »

MoxieVoxie wrote:
heather wrote: but hey, if i get a "nic fit" or i'm hella drunk or hella hella blazed and i want to smoke, who the fuck are you to tell me not to?


Hmmm..."high and mighty" comes to mind. PS: I hope your post was a joke


that's not "high and mighty" that's me asking who are YOU to tell me what to do?

this thread is ri-goddamn-diculous.
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c-dog
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Post by c-dog »

heather wrote:this thread is ri-goddamn-diculous.


ri-goddamn-diculous is a great word/phrase.
and now for something completely different - here is something pretty ri-goddamn-diculous
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Post by heather »

dude, peter pan guy is old news to me, but thanks anyway. i keep forgetting the link. he's great. creepy, maladjusted, but great.
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Liesbeth
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Post by Liesbeth »

glad to see AJ's reaction, although I'd say those who 'merely' find it irritating do have a point also - but a lot depends on how people bring it, I suppose.

good thing about this discussion is that I talked about it with my husband and he is seriously thinking about giving the quitting thing a go once again (but that might be because winter is coming and he has to smoke outside ;-)
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Post by nwheather »

I understand the fact that we can't smoke in most places. I can wait until we get outside after dinner to smoke, I welcome the oportunity to go outside during work, and...Jaysus, people used to smoke in hospitals?!? If it's a concert venue, hey, I'm a little too busy enjoying the show to nic-fit anyway. But c'mon, in a bar, people obviously aren't too concerned with their health!

LoveSickJerk wrote: ...why should I have my options limited simply because some other folks want to smoke?


Conversely, why should they have their options limited just because you don't like their smoke? Again, it's not really posing any risks to you, it's just annoying. I'm not trying to pick a fight, really, and even as a smoker, I hate other people's smoke going right into my face. What I wish is that smokers and nonsmokers alike would simply be more considerate of others in general. If you're smoking next to other people, watch your smoke. If at all possible, direct it away from them; if not, move so that it is possible. If there are ashtrays all around you, don't throw your butts on the ground; someone has to clean 'em up! And nonsmokers: stop putting trash in the ashtrays!! Trash is for trashcans; butts are for ashtrays. Like, duh.

Smoking is not a right, it is a choice...


Exactly. We all have choices, and the only rights we are really afforded are :

1. Life. Smokers aren't abridging that right, nor are nonsmokers by bitching. Each is merely annoying the other.

2. Liberty. A.k.a. the right to make one's own choices. Smokers aren't taking away anyone's liberty by smoking in an area clearly designated as allowing smoking. Nonsmokers, on the other hand, are indeed trying to force smokers into having only one choice: quitting or smoking only at home, with the windows closed, hiding under the covers. (Okay, technically, that's only in MD at the moment, but if they could, the same people would implement similar legislation everywhere.)

3. Pursuit of Happiness. This one's a bit tricky, because you can easily stomp on someone else's happiness in pursuit of your own. Many people do just that everyday. Certainly, if I light up because it makes me happy, I can make the guy next to me quite unhappy by grossing him out/making him cough. Which is why I always ask before I light up in someone else's house/car, even if I know them to be chain-smoking fiends. You see, with just a little bit of thought about your effect on others, you can avoid a lot of problems. Shame so many don't seem to even realize they aren't the only person on earth until they get pissed off when someone gets in their way.

MoxieVoxie wrote:If you walked thru a bar throwing your drinks on random people just minding their own business, if you didn't get arrested you would definitely get thrown out. Smoking around people is just as invasive.


Um, no it's not, because there are no areas with signs that read, 'Designated Throwing-Your-Drink-On-People Area'. You would just be sitting there minding your own business, and BAM. Also, you can go outside for a sec and be smoke-free almost instantly. Not so with a rum-soaked shirt. Plus, throwing drinks on people necessitates intent, whereas bugging nonsmokers is merely an unfortunate side effect of smoking.


...I don't like it when I am forced to breath in other people's smoke and go home smelling like ass, and I would never impose my choice to smoke on someone who doesn't. I also don't think a non-smoker should be forced to choose to not go to see a show because it is a poorly ventilated venue. Smokers can simply go outside to smoke...big deal.


Okay, here I agree with you. Like I said above, I would never impose my smoke on someone in their home/car without at least asking first. And I sure don't want nonsmokers to stay home not enjoying a show over my smoke! As long as the show is only a couple of hours and/or has a break, I am happy to go outside provided re-entry is allowed.

The argument that a smoker's rights are being taken away can be equated with a drinker's rights being taken away because they cannot drink in vehicles or many public places.


Crap, just when we were getting on so well...no, it's not at all the same. Smoke may be annoying, but you don't get fucked up on it such that you pose a threat to others whilst driving/in public. C'mon, did I even have to point out that one?

anthropomorphizing_kitty wrote: ...Second, there is not a fiber in my being that can even begin to comprehend how a person can in good concience smoke around their children. I used to work in a restaurant and people would ask for the smoking section and a high-chair and I felt like beating them over the head with the high-chair. Absolutely intolerable.


Me too! I had a chick who was apparently about 6-7 mos. pregnant try to bum a smoke from me, and I just smiled and said, 'Sorry, I can't' and then went inside and screamed bloody murder. WTF?!?

Liesbeth wrote: Funny thing is: our non-smoking law is about guaranteeing all employees a smoke-free environment, but this was pretty much the argument the bar lobby used and it worked.


While we're at it, how about guaranteeing all employees a soft rock-free environment? Why should retail employees have to suffer that indignity? (Only half-joking here, people.)

Liz wrote:
they can work somewhere smoke-free if they so choose.

I seriuosly doubt that everyone can make such a choice so easily.


In the restaurant/bar industry? Hell yeah, they can! The turnover in those jobs is extremely high, at least everywhere I've been.

And I don't know what exactly that study is about, but second-hand smoking isharmful. I think there's more than just one study to prove that.


Um, 'that study' was done by the EPA and is the basis for virtually all claims of secondhand smoke harmfulness. Other 'studies' generally pilfer that one, tweak it a bit, and call it data.

Some people who smoke are actually quite obliging about their habit, and some are just reckless jerks.


The same can be said for people in general, including message board posters. ;)

Betty Felon wrote:...no biting!


Awwwww...you never let us have any fun! =P

...It's certainly hard to adjust to going to a place to relax and only being partially satisfied with the experience. But people DO get really sick being around smoke. And they have to take it home with them in thier hair and clothes. And when it comes to dealing with a little irritation, the same argument could be made for the smoker having to go outside.


Personally, I don't have that much trouble getting through something as short as a rock show without smoking, and those who do might think about cutting back. And the last thing I'd want to do is ruin the vibe by making a bunch of people sick and pissy. Frankly, I think outdoor concerts are the best solution, weather permitting.

I want to add that being considerate and polite to others is not something to just blow off...I'm not sure, however, that politeness should be legislated...though it certainly seems that that's the only way that anyone bothers thinking about it.


*sigh* Sad, isn't it? Why can't people just be aware of their neighbors? You don't have to love 'em, no matter what Jesus says, but is simple consideration really too much to ask? When the fuck did people stop teaching their kids manners? It's just about become an antiquated term, manners. Anyway, BF, it's nice to know I'm not the only one struggling with it.

Side note: I just went on a long road trip with a fellow smoker. In fact, she smoked about twice as much as I did. And by the time we reached Little Rock on the way home, I was about to barf. But hey, the same thing I said above applies: I'm not imposing non-smoking on someone in their own car anymore than I'm imposing my smoking on someone in their own car. Anyway, wish me luck quitting; I have to in the next 2 months.
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Post by A Brutaful Smile »

i find it amazing we have all lived this long considering how many things we have found out to be bad for us or what one shouldn't do when one is pregnant or what you should do to protect your children. things have changed quite dramatically since our parent's had us.

personally i never had an issue w/smoking. mostly because all of my family did while i was growing up and then i took it up as soon as i was legal(18) for some odd reason. i smoked off and on until about a year ago.
during the time i was smoking i went to visit LA and discovered to my horror that you couldn't smoke in the clubs! but as far as i could tell it didn't stop anyone from being at the clubs. most places have an outdoor patio or you can easily loiter on the sidewalks outside. i found it annoying when i had to run in and out of the whiskey all night but luckily most of the people i was w/were outside doing the same thing so i at least had company.
after i had quit smoking for a while i noticed something i had barely noticed before. i stunk the day after being out at a club/bar! because i used to smoke i didn't really notice it as much but man when you quit, it's obvious! i hated it, still don't care for it much. i really liked it when kexp had the show at the croc that was smoke free. it was nice to have been out and not stink the next day.
i also went thru a phase soon after quitting where i became really sensitive to the smell and could barely handle it. i'm way over that now tho and it doesn't bother me. in fact...recently over the past couple months i have picked up a smoke here or there. it's pretty easy to do when you are partying around a whole group of smokers.
in general it wouldn't bother me one way or the other if there was smoking in clubs/bars or not, but really i think this anti-smoking "war" has gotten out of hand. i do think it's pushing other's views on something that is still legal and someone's right to do if they choose.
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