If you had to choose between them...

Betty Felon · Post by **Betty Felon** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:25 pm

An interesting moral question based on a quote from EM Forster.

I'll tell you later which one he hoped he'd choose if faced with the dilemma.

the new girl · Post by **the new girl** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:27 pm

Considering my current feelings toward this country, this is a pretty easy question...

BladeRunner · Post by **BladeRunner** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:10 pm

totally

Unremarkable · Post by **Unremarkable** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:29 pm

Hmmmm, apparently I'm not as cynical as I thought.

dchris · Post by **dchris** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:25 pm

oops.

Um, I read the question wrong, and meant to vote opposite to the way I did. Do-overs?

Yarn · Post by **Yarn** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:55 pm

Uhh, this would really depend on the situation, wouldn't it?

LoveSickJerk · Post by **LoveSickJerk** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:45 am

This was really hard. I'm fascinated to see what this EM Forester fella has to say...

heather · Post by **heather** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:49 pm

country. totally. because you only get so many friends in your life, whereas there are literally gazillions of countries to choose from, and more being created every gd day! although, the poll didn't specify which country i'd betray.. i would TOTALLY betray Tibet. those stupid monks think they're so fuckin smart. assholes.

A Brutaful Smile · Post by **A Brutaful Smile** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:03 pm

the fact that you could end up in prison betraying your country, depending on your offense, leads me to lean towards betraying a friend.

the hutch · Post by **the hutch** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:28 pm

Wasn't there a great Star Trek episode in which Spock had a soliloquy on whether the death of one could be more tragic than the death of many? Perhaps this should be considered in Vulcan terms.

Brant of HD · Post by **Brant of HD** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:04 pm

There is a thought in sociology that people can be placed in spheres of loyalty. Theoretically, the more general (larger) the sphere, the less loyal you are.

Squid · Post by **Squid** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:41 pm

What with the current president and all, I go out of my way to betray this country _every goddamn day_.

Betty Felon · Post by **Betty Felon** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:23 pm

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country." -- EM Forster

I would like to point out, for the sake of complicating things, that I think the real question is not about your "government" (god knows there isn't much loyalty to that right now) but about your "country". That means democracy as you were grown in it. That means the fifth ammendment. That means all the dorky people you see everyday and the most-of-the-time civil way they interact. All the culture you were formed by. All of it.

Machiavelli claims we are patriots for one reason only and that's because we were born here. (Not to mention, its a theory that can keep Arnold out of the presidency.) Freedom and democracy are laudable achievements. Hell, the belief that all people are equal was once a revolutionary thought. There are a lot of outstanding things, and just heartwarming things that I love about America. I'm not going to let some conservative rhetoric take that away.

Then again. When the question says "friend" it means a real "friend" not random person you drink beer with. And that's a somewhat more delicate and possibly much more valuable kind of accomplishment.

That's what makes the question so interesting.

LoveSickJerk · Post by **LoveSickJerk** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:35 pm

Which is a good illustration of why my Franco-Canadian (NOT French Canadian) girlfriend and I have an issue all the time. She doesn't consider herself an American (though naturalized) and I was, well, born here. The arguments we get in are ridiculous.

aj · Post by aj » Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:38 am

I would always stick with the friend. ALWAYS.

if you can't trust your friends you have no one.

heather · Post by **heather** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:02 am

your mom. you can always trust your mom. right? unless your mom is a communist spy.

aj · Post by aj » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:13 am

mom is in the friend category.

I know, I know. insert gooey hallmark "awww".

Yarn · Post by **Yarn** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:59 pm

If you were to truly betray your country, therefore affecting all it's citizens in a big way, wouldn't that also be betraying all your friends (given that they live in your country) as well?

aj · Post by aj » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:51 am

but if you must betray one or the other, it is quite likely that your friends' values are in line with yours (huge generalization) and would agree with your choice. what's best for one is never best for all, so on the smaller scale you can better judge the situation and act accordingly. I don't believe there is a single decision that is best for the entire country. well, strike that. I think getting bush out of office would benefit everyone.

sabirah · Post by **sabirah** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:59 pm

aj wrote:but if you must betray one or the other, it is quite likely that your friends' values are in line with yours (huge generalization) and would agree with your choice. what's best for one is never best for all, so on the smaller scale you can better judge the situation and act accordingly. I don't believe there is a single decision that is best for the entire country. well, strike that. I think getting bush out of office would benefit everyone.

ditto

The Long Winters

If you had to choose between them...

would you betray your friend or betray your country?

If you had to choose between them...