On Trading, Formats, and Community

A repository for everything else. Introductions, off-topic threads, testing and so on. When in doubt, post it here.

Moderators: Moderators Emeritus, Moderators

User avatar
Liesbeth
Posts: 3259
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 4:27 am
Current Heading: West
Location: megaland
Contact:

Postby Liesbeth » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:01 am

Holy canolee, is anyone still here? That was a lot of reading, and I skipped parts.
And man, this is the closest I have seen to a flame war ever on this board.
Clearly people care...
(having said that, no disrespect but sour29, I think you made your point, maybe let other people have a go for a day, eh?)

My view is muddled by a severe dislike of p2p file sharing... so I'm biaised. And if it comes to TLW, I would love as much as possible, because I love comparing versions (I made a comp with 3 radio sessions which each have Cinnamon, really different versions, lovely).

But if I think how I look for music from bands I don't know well and want to check out, here's what I like a band site to offer:
- I like mp3s, because it's fast, if I don't like it after all, not much harm done
- I like a pick of a couple of songs, being representative, or special or whatever, so that it makes for easy choice of what to download.
Often there might be a link to a whole session or gig - not broken up in songs, but that I will only check out if I like the band from the first few mp3s.
So, in my opinion, the casual passer-by would be drawn in best by choice cuts on the website or wherever the hub of this thing would be.

Having to make the choices might be a bit more difficult in case of TLW, if only because there are many interesting line-ups to be represented.

I personally like mail trades for reasons already stated by others (sense of community, discussing recordings, oh and sometimes great artwork!!). But I sometimes feel a bit shy because I feel I don't have much in return, which will make me hesitate to participate. Any trade community in my opinion should emphasize that this is about low threshold sharing, not awards for best list of stuff to offer.
I'll gladly help out in cd/dvd trees, and especially with images I think that quality does matter and might benefit from hard copy trading: have one song online and propose trade for the rest, maybe?

My 2 eurocents (worth less in dollars, but I'm willing to trade for music ;-)
Last edited by Liesbeth on Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Merlin
Kaiser of Nerds
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:52 pm
Location: San Francisco, Calif.
Contact:

Postby Merlin » Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:04 am

Maybe it would help to provide some context. I'm reluctant to go into a great deal of detail since it's a brand new idea. But if this helps calm the jangled nerves of the L-Dub posse, here we go:

Imagine an area of the site not entirely unlike the tour diary area (but better updated [hint hint, JRo]), where we would have posts, like a weblog, if you will. Each post would link to a few tracks from one or more live shows. Maybe it's a whole set. Maybe it's a single song. Maybe it's just eleven versions of "Unsalted Butter." I don't know and that's the point. It's up to John and the band.

So these tracks are up, you can listen to them online or download them all in a handy zip file then stick 'em on your iPod. And alongside might be commentary, photo, lyrics, editorializing, arguing, guest appearances by people who played on the original. Again, I don't know. It's up to John and the band.

So you see, what we're proposing is not to provide every track ever recorded, and we're not trying to ruin the reputation of audiophiles throughout North America. No. We're just trying to bring a little rock to the kids.

Will it be MP3? Almost certainly. Will it be whole shows? Yeah, sometimes. Are we going to make a bunch of rules and guidelines? No.

This site is from the band to you guys and I really hope you'll trust them and me to do something that will make you happy and reward your wonderful wonderfulness.

Now. You're all certainly free to continue this at any volume and length you like--personally I think it's been as productive as it will get--but I'd really rather see you over here telling us about your shows and spreading The Rock.

The band loves you all, and hates it when you're sad.

User avatar
anthropomorphizing_kitty
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 3:17 pm
Location: Bonita Springs, FL
Contact:

Postby anthropomorphizing_kitty » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:21 pm

I just thought I'd throw in my $0.02.
If you want to see a really great community, check out www.selfies.com. Granted, these are not fan-contributed recordings, but band recordings. However they're being made freely available by MP3 makes it so that in a matter of under an hour, I can have a CD playing in my car of every song on there. And while I do appreciate the difference in sound quality, it's not something that my $20 computer speakers or my factory car speakers are going to make use of. Besides, if bandwidth is a-wastin', why can't we make both available?

User avatar
chelsea
Posts: 726
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: Queen Anne Hill
Contact:

Postby chelsea » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:14 pm

NatureBoy wrote:
If people were abusing whatever system is put into place I trust that things would change to make it a better system. Bottom line, if John and Eric and Michael (et al.) approve of the sharing of their live spirit then that's what I'm in favor of. It's their call. I'm just happy to see a show, or have a cd, or be able to hear their music at all - in whatever form. That's what it's all about.


i haven't finished reading this whole discussion yet, but i couldn't agree more with the above paragraph. especially the last two sentences.

User avatar
LngHrvWntrsDngr
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:51 am
Location: Home

Postby LngHrvWntrsDngr » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:18 pm

chelsea wrote:
NatureBoy wrote:
If people were abusing whatever system is put into place I trust that things would change to make it a better system. Bottom line, if John and Eric and Michael (et al.) approve of the sharing of their live spirit then that's what I'm in favor of. It's their call. I'm just happy to see a show, or have a cd, or be able to hear their music at all - in whatever form. That's what it's all about.


i haven't finished reading this whole discussion yet, but i couldn't agree more with the above paragraph. especially the last two sentences.


ditto for me, if the gods are happy, we all reap the benefits

User avatar
No You Are
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:53 pm
Current Heading: North
Location: Rochester, MinneSOta
Contact:

Live tunes

Postby No You Are » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:05 pm

I think Merlin has it down. I know I would appreciate any type of live music from a rockin' band like the L-Dubs I can get my hands on.

For all those that have been getting a little worked up about this, remember....

From what I've read, when their fans aren't happy, the Long Winters aren't happy. And the Long Winters are sad Santa Claus cries.

It's a scientific FACT.

User avatar
Unremarkable
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:09 am
Current Heading: East
Location: Kennewick?

Postby Unremarkable » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:08 pm

First off, let me say that this is one of the most interesting debates on this board ever. I respect everyone's opinion, and feel like it is time to give mine. Coming from the point of view of a (very) amaturer bootlegger/collecter of bootlegs, I do have a few comments on this subject.

I agree that trading through the mail is a fun way to do trading, and have done this many times. It allows for the trade of higher quality shows, and does help establish a bondship between traders and the delight of opening up the mailbox to find a new bootleg waiting for me is one I relish. I have not been a part of any trading communities like SP and Zwan thast Sour mentioned, but I have a a few nice recordings. A problem with this method that I found out in the beginning is that it can be hard to get started. When I had nothing to trade, or had nothing to trade that interested the other person, they flatly refused to give me anything. Some even refused to send me a copy of something, even if I sent them two blank CDs and a SASE! I doubt that anyone trading in a Long Winters Community would be an asshole like that, I myself have sent out numerous bootlegs to people , while asking for nothing in return, but it is something that happens. Ultimately, I had to make my start downloading whole shows in mp3 from such sites as www.indiepoplive.com , to have trade bait.

I'm not computer illiterate, but I'm also not a technological wizard. I may be mistaken, but don't you have to have a special program to run .shn files? I tried downloading a couple of such programs, and they would not work on my computer for whatever reason. My email does not allow for large enough files to trade via email, and I know nothing of hosting websites. Also, for the record, I do not have 500 megabytes of free space on my computer, nor do I have 500 megabytes of spaced used by "illegal" mp3s. I cannot believe that you can lump the mix CD swap we had, in with the same crowd that downloads whole albums from bands, with no intents of ever purchasing said album. You cannot say that the trading of the mix CDs will hurt any of the artists on them. If anything, it will HELP their sales.

I think that it is important to have complete, full live shows available to download. I think that posting a few songs from various shows hurts the recordings, because it would cause them to be out of context.

I do not think that the lost quality in going to mp3 is anything to cry about. To test this, I ripped an mp3 file from an mp3 file, from an mp3 file from a wav file, and compared them all to the original (on good speakers). I could barely notice the difference in some parts, but not in all. Maybe you can tell the difference, but there are many people like me who either can't tell, or don't care.

In the end, I am for getting complete shows to the greates number of fans, in the easiest and fastest way possible.

User avatar
sour29
Posts: 2057
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:53 am
Current Heading: Ascending
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Postby sour29 » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:52 pm

I have been asked not to say anything in this thread for a while, but I'm probably the only one who's qualified to answer some of the questions here... so:
Unremarkable wrote:I may be mistaken, but don't you have to have a special program to run .shn files?
To listen to them on your computer, you need to download SHNamp, an add-on to WinAmp. You need an SHN decompressor (such as MKWaudio) to convert to WAV (for burning). FLAC files are already supported in Winamp without an add-on. FLAC Frontend is needed to decode FLAC files to WAV (for burning). All of these programs (and a buttload of information) is available at http://www.etree.org .

I recommend everyone take a look through the above site and read more about lossless trading before they either nae or aye this idea.

User avatar
chelsea
Posts: 726
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:53 pm
Location: Queen Anne Hill
Contact:

Postby chelsea » Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:54 am

i'm just going to add a few random thoughts here...from someone who's never taped a show and doesn't have any desire to do so.

first of all, i think this discussion is an interesting one, but seems somehow way too in depth for this community. like people have said, this is a board of fairly small numbers, and it's pretty tight knit, which i love (i too have met some rad people because of it). but like i was saying, i think that the majority of the regular posters here, save sour29, aren't well-versed in the taping lingo and all that stuff. don't get me wrong, i know people here love to hear live shows and i don't think there's anything wrong with discussing this, i just think that the nit-picking of what the better sound quality is could better be discussed elsewhere. it seems like it should really be up to the band as to how many/what sort of files to post when it comes to live shows. there's been the argument that it will kill the taping community or something...i don't really get that...

secondly, when i'm out trying to hear some music of a band i've never heard before, i'd rather find a couple mp3s of their album tracks. i think this just gives (me at least) a better idea of what their album is going to sound like, and whether or not i'll want to buy it. i personally really won't care about hearing live tracks until i know and love a band and have been to their shows...but maybe that's just me. and in general, i only care about having a copy of a show that i was at...that's really the only reason i'd ever seek a copy of a live show, to be able to relive the experience. i will be eternally grateful to chris for giving me a copy of the nada surf show in april, as this was one my greatest show going experiences ever. but back to the point...i'm just not someone who's hungry for recorded live music in general. don't get me wrong...i ADORE going to shows and hearing live music, but hearing it recorded just usually isn't the same. i'd rather hear a "clean" version of the song most of the time. call me crazy, but it's true. i like the "live in brussels" nada surf cd almost more because they speak french in between the songs than for the songs themselves...which i love, but can listen to on their albums at any time.

i think that it would be nice to have a couple of live mp3s here at thelongwinters.com, but it seems like whole shows should be left out of it, and put in places like DC or other such programs, where hardcore live show seekers can easily find them....

User avatar
LoveSickJerk
Posts: 1261
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:02 pm
Current Heading: Ascending
Location: Buffalo, NY et al.
Contact:

Postby LoveSickJerk » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:22 am

I've slugged through the majority of this discussion, and must say that I am happy to be here. And to take whatever the River Otters of Rock give us. Party on Wayne!

User avatar
Liesbeth
Posts: 3259
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 4:27 am
Current Heading: West
Location: megaland
Contact:

Postby Liesbeth » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:07 am

Party on Garth!
yep, we are lucky to be having this discussion at all, and I think the sharing nature of this band is quite amazing. They rule! (and so they should because it's their music)

User avatar
aj
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:45 pm
Location: getting closer
Contact:

Postby aj » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:17 am

I am really glad that this discussion is happening, even if it has been more heated at times (more heated than necessary, perhaps, but I do like to see people care about what they're saying and try to get it across).

to streamline what I said before: I think we are talking about two different audiences-- new and potential fans who want a sample and old-timers and die hards who want as much as possible.

so what satisfies both without leaving either disappointed? I think its very important to "hook" the newbies without them needing to choose from a gazillion options. But there should be a way for those who want the gazillion options to have access that.

yep.

and not to go to an unhappy place, but is it necessary to ask someone not to post to give others a chance? (I almost lost faith in us... for a moment, but still...) this is a message board. if someone is posting a lot it is not physically stopping another from voicing their opinion. maybe people were feeling intimidated and that is unfortunate, but it isn't technically the excited poster's fault that others aren't posting. if anything, a more passionate post should get others involved and should help flesh out new ideas.

Yay to the 1st amendment and TLW message board.


P.S. I love it here and I would never say anything with the sole motive of pissing any of you off. devil's advocate, yes. devil herself, probably not. never say never ;)

User avatar
sour29
Posts: 2057
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:53 am
Current Heading: Ascending
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Postby sour29 » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:33 am

Liesbeth wrote:Party on Garth!
yep, we are lucky to be having this discussion at all, and I think the sharing nature of this band is quite amazing. They rule! (and so they should because it's their music)
I actually agree with this. We are lucky that this is even up to debate. Three cheers for the River Otters Of Rock!

User avatar
Liesbeth
Posts: 3259
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 4:27 am
Current Heading: West
Location: megaland
Contact:

Postby Liesbeth » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:44 pm

aj wrote:and not to go to an unhappy place, but is it necessary to ask someone not to post to give others a chance?
(...)
Yay to the 1st amendment and TLW message board.

Just to clarify my reason for posting my comment: when I started reading this discussion I was thrilled, when I had gotten to about three quarters of it, it got me down (in my case maybe amplified by english not being my first language).
Now, I know that I am an addict to this board, and this is a subject that interests me, so I felt that if I felt this way, others might feel it too.

I tried to phrase it as respectfully as possible, but I do not regret writing it, in fact I did it because I care and because I felt the point was getting lost in the volume.

Freedom of speech to me doesn't mean you cannot let someone know that you think they have made their point and others might want a say too - but then again, where I live we don't yell first amendment at any possible moment, so what do I know about it ;-) (oops, stirring up the fire, am I?)

User avatar
Betty Felon
Posts: 1779
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:15 pm
Location: miserable degrees fahrenheit
Contact:

Postby Betty Felon » Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:55 pm

Wowzers. It took all workday, but made it through this whole entire thread. I feel like I just ran a half-mary. Where is my juice box?

Here is what I've gleaned:

1. Everyone agrees that TWL are awesome.
2. Everyone loves this board.
3. EVERYONE loves the idea of a blog type section with live mp3's and commentary from band and interesting guests.
    a.) The point of contention is whether or not entire sets should be available vs. only a few choice tracks and some instructions on how to participate via postal mail in the trading of high quality recordings made with loving care by the audio obsessed.

4. There exists a subculture of such obssessed ones and they are called "tapers" and they are very passionatly devoted to excellence. (this culture is new to me.) They also comprise a community that sprouts from mailing things around and said community has concerns about its survival in the wake of ease.

5. The point of this live music distribution section is:
    a.) to facilitate current fans in acquiring much desired live recordings.
    b.) to bring in new "tapers" and traders of taper material
    c.) to attract new fans
    d.) be really cool


That about cover it?

I think it's already been decided and Merlin has declared the blog-style mp3 section will go up, and sometimes it will contain whole shows and it will be flexible in the case of unforseen problems or future genius ideas. So that's that.

That being decided, it might be nice to add something to the blog-type section, like a link or something that points to another page that celebrates, explains, encourages and invites one into this Taper/Trader culture and the technical forms it takes on. This thread has been informative, if a little overwhelming, and it would be awesome to have the info preserved and maybe organized.

But I think the other side does have a point. Sour29, this culture is just not for everyone. Does that mean that those who are not willing to participate in an inconveinient culture or simply don't have the faculties to appreciate the subtleties of the technology and the quality should be denied access to full-show live recordings?

Personally, I don't have the ear to distinguish great from merely good quality, nor really the desire to learn about all these files, how to apply them to a mac. And I dont like licking stamps; they are gross. But I do like listening to a whole show in continuity.

Yes, you've put time, money and passion into your work and there are people who just don't care. Yeah....it's not fair. But everyone faces something like this problem with thier work. Does everyone that visits Merlin's gorgeous LW website stop and appreciate his valid xhtml? Do they stop and check out the supreme quality of our fan collective? Or do they just grab thier mp3's, look at some pics, check the tour dates, and go on thier way? Would they like it here? Probably. Do we care a lot? Not me.

And there also always destructive forces at work. There are meanie, ignorant, critics and horrible theiving record labels and shameless plagarists and incessent fans who want nothing less than spinning plates on sticks. But thank god those bastards are completely fucking irrelevent to the work itself.

The people of this board, and most the people who will bother listening to live mp3's, are not in the same category as the above-mentioned baddies. And who knows, maybe the section will lead a couple lost-soul-tapers into the fold as they search for the thrilling high-quality audio recording community they yearn for. I say if you find one or two, you can call it a rousing success!
Last edited by Betty Felon on Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
aj
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:45 pm
Location: getting closer
Contact:

Postby aj » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:06 pm

Liesbeth wrote:Freedom of speech to me doesn't mean you cannot let someone know that you think they have made their point and others might want a say too -

but then again, where I live we don't yell first amendment at any possible moment, so what do I know about it ;-) (oops, stirring up the fire, am I?)


my point was that you can ask for other's opinions, but why shut someone down? Others ARE FREE TO POST WHENEVER THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. no one was stopping them. that was all I was getting at. if this were a verbal discussion, sure. but its a message board. two people can be posting at the very same time.

and I'll have you know, I've never before (EVER ...that I can remember) shouted 1st Amendment or used that in the annoying way I did earlier (typed with a smile).

User avatar
the new math
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:29 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Postby the new math » Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:15 pm

a few thoughts concerning the trading discussion that has been going on.

as far as i'm concerned, let freedom reign. you all should have the choice of how you trade and post live songs. if an .ogg version of carparts gives you the hot sweats, then so it shall be yours. i can't really see the sense in trying to create a bunch of rules and regulations before actually trying this thing out, a clear case of putting the cart before the horse. some simple guidelines at the start i'm sure will suffice, and then the kinks can be moderated/voted out. i'm sure after awhile the traders who keep at it will gravitate towards a consensus on format/quality/etc, but there's no point in dictating that from the get go, especially in lieu of the continued development of quality audio formats.

that said, if web based trading of certain audio formats ain't your thing, there should be perhaps a new snail mail trading thread on the message board, with a stickied FAQ on some do's and don'ts. there's no reason we can't all have our cake and eat it too. it's only webspace, right?

and just in case it isn't totally clear, the opinions expressed here are MINE and don't necessarily reflect the rest of the band. i'm sure they'll weigh in soon enough.

User avatar
Betty Felon
Posts: 1779
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:15 pm
Location: miserable degrees fahrenheit
Contact:

Postby Betty Felon » Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:12 pm

the new math wrote: there's no reason we can't all have our cake and eat it too. it's only webspace, right?


I think that's what's really at the heart of the debate here though.

One of Sour's major points, if I'm understanding, is that allowing whole shows and every recording to be available in mp3 format will kill the snail mail community. And this will take the high-quality formats with it.

User avatar
the new math
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:29 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Postby the new math » Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:23 pm

for the most part, all of these live recordings are starting out as DAT, minidisc or hard drive recordings. mini disc data is compressed as it's recorded and the fidelity is compromised right then and there, but the other two formats have the fidelity he wants. the sources of these live recordings, the masters, are in formats that he wants. encoding and distributing these source files using different formats doesn't change that fact.

if one wants, they can obtain the master recording of a particular show with a little bit of legwork. i've seen it done time and time again on other message boards, where someone posts mp3s of a live show and then offers up a CDR copy if someone mails him an envelope with postage and blank CDR. and no one complains, because most of these live recordings don't even have the fidelity to argue about. besides, it's not THAT hard to tell whether or not mp3s with decent bitrates originate from really good source material. to paraphrase what larry crane often says, you can't compress a turd and make it sound less like a turd.

what i see here is a demand for web based trading and a simple, effective way to supply that demand. if traders (non profit entities mind you) get all up in arms about that fact, i don't know what to say. if throwing a live show up on the site (in a format that is easily downloaded by the majority) introduces more people to the long winters, and spawns a larger community of fans (who in turn boost attendance at shows), what is the problem?

User avatar
Betty Felon
Posts: 1779
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 4:15 pm
Location: miserable degrees fahrenheit
Contact:

Postby Betty Felon » Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:05 pm

I don't completely understand what the problem is, that sounds good to me. hahaha, I will stop arguing other people's points now. k, thx.


Return to “Cattywampus”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests