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sour29
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Postby sour29 » Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:39 pm

the new math wrote:for the most part, all of these live recordings are starting out as DAT, minidisc or hard drive recordings. mini disc data is compressed as it's recorded and the fidelity is compromised right then and there, but the other two formats have the fidelity he wants.

This is all true. However, with the Long Winters having a (generally) younger fanbase, Minidisc (being the most affordable of taping options) is likely the most common of formats it's going to be taped in. I've heard some pretty damn good Minidisc recordings, myself--some that compare to DAT and Harddrive. I'd argue that a MD with good microphones is by far greater than a DAT with shitty ones. But I'm off my point here: I'm not going to argue that MD recordings are compressed (because they are), but I'm going to argue why encourage compressing (and thus, compromising) them more than they already are?

if one wants, they can obtain the master recording of a particular show with a little bit of legwork. i've seen it done time and time again on other message boards, where someone posts mp3s of a live show and then offers up a CDR copy if someone mails him an envelope with postage and blank CDR.
This is true, but (excuse me if I'm wrong) the Long Winters still have a smaller fanbase than a lot of trading communities and I would argue that not everyone who tapes the Long Winters is going to post MP3s here on this message board. In fact, I can say from personal experience that my buddy and I taped the very first set I saw the band play (05/29/03) without having heard anything about the Long Winters at all. We were there taping Nada Surf, and took a chance to spend an extra MD on a band we didn't know. I think this type of taping happens more often than people may realize. I enjoyed the show, but I didn't rush to TheLongWinters.com and post MP3 samples looking for trades. Now, TheLongWinters have been playing some pretty high profile shows. Prolific tours with Nada Surf, Death Cab For Cutie, and SXSW to name a few off of the top of my head. I can't help but wonder how many tapers were at those shows to see the other bands, but taped your set as well? But, for whatever reason they may have, haven't advertised possession of the tape. An MP3 trading community is not going to encourage the release of such tapes. That's why I'm encouraging mail trades (alongside lossless file transfers)--to encourage trades between communities that otherwise would never happen.

besides, it's not THAT hard to tell whether or not mp3s with decent bitrates originate from really good source material.
Definately not. Which is why I encourage Merlin to post the best tracks of the best recordings. If people decide they like what they want, they will start by picking out the ones they've heard from the website--the one's that sound best--and begin to enter the trading community.

if throwing a live show up on the site (in a format that is easily downloaded by the majority) introduces more people to the long winters, and spawns a larger community of fans (who in turn boost attendance at shows), what is the problem?

The problem is putting up whole shows in MP3 tends to (almost always) upset the Tapers. Tapers get upset with a band's release policy, they stop taping their shows. So, your MP3ing works wonderfully for a few months (while you have an older archive to cull from), but then the well becomes drained. Without tapers to tape the shows, you're not left with a lot to MP3 (unless, of course, you start recording your own shows through the soundboard and keeping those for the site). There will always be the occassional die-hard fan who will tape shows, but those die-hards tend to prefer to go to the shows and enjoy themselves without the worries of taping. Also, unless they already have plenty of taping experience, they are going to be of lesser quality (a tape is, afterall, only as good as the taper).

I argue that a lossless trading community encourages not only new fans, but new tapers. And that is not a bad thing.

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Thanks for your

Postby sour29 » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:23 pm

First and foremost, thanks for the well-thoughtout and lengthy POV/perspective you've offered Betty. You too, Michael--and everyone else who is participating. Participation is the key to the success of this thread--no matter which side ends up the victor.

Betty Felon wrote:One of Sour's major points, if I'm understanding, is that allowing whole shows and every recording to be available in mp3 format will kill the snail mail community. And this will take the high-quality formats with it.
Not just snail mail community, but a trading community that respects a) the wishes of the tapers (who tend not to want their stuff MP3'd), b) the quality/integrity of the recording, and c) the continuance of a taping/trading community.

Betty Felon wrote:Wowzers. It took all workday, but made it through this whole entire thread. I feel like I just ran a half-mary. Where is my juice box?

I thank you for taking the time to--I think it's a very important topic of debate. -hands you a juice box-

That about cover it?
Actually, that was pretty perfect.

I think it's already been decided and Merlin has declared the blog-style mp3 section will go up, and sometimes it will contain whole shows
The question I'm left wondering is whether or not Merlin (and/or the Long Winters themselves) will respect the requests of the taper. If I were to ask specifically that my recording of 06/06/04 not be put up on the website at all (although I plan on sending the band a copy and they pretty much can do with it as they wish), but they really wanted to, would they put it up anyway? Would they attempt to reach a compromise? Or would they just decide: "hey, we've got other recordings we could put up. it's all good."? As a LW taper who's bluntly concerned about lossless trading and forming a community of like-minded individuals, these things do concern me.

it might be nice to add something to the blog-type section, like a link or something that points to another page that celebrates, explains, encourages and invites one into this Taper/Trader culture and the technical forms it takes on. This thread has been informative, if a little overwhelming, and it would be awesome to have the info preserved and maybe organized.
interesting idea. I offer my support.

Sour29, this culture is just not for everyone. Does that mean that those who are not willing to participate in an inconveinient culture or simply don't have the faculties to appreciate the subtleties of the technology and the quality should be denied access to full-show live recordings?

Those who are not interested in the culture tend to not collect live shows. They may want a copy of the shows that they were at, and maybe one or two other stand-out recordings. But they are not going to be the ones amassing 10, 20, 200 recordings of the band. Those not interested in the culture can still participate in it long enough to get what they want (i.e. the SASE and blank cd method mentioned a few times in this thread) with minimal hassle. Maybe I'm too old school or whatever, but I believe that if you want something, you should have to work for it. Going to the post office, generally, is not a whole lot of work. Sending out an e-mail/posting a request on a message board--maybe three or four--is not a lot of work. I'm not yelling this, but making it really clear because it seems people are missing my point: No one is being denied access to full-show live recordings. I'm just asking that they go through a bit more trouble than right-clicking a link and pressing "Save as..." to get full shows. Not a lot more trouble--I'm not asking for first born children; just a Self-Addressed-Stamped-Envelope and a blank cd. That is not an inconvienient culture--it's an older culture. One we've used for over a century. One that still exists. It's only inconvienient if you don't want to put forth any effort into acquiring something.

The MP3 generation is a spoiled one. They are used to everything being handed to them on a silver platter and fed to them on a silver spoon. I'm suggesting they get their hands a bit dirty for something they want. Frankly, to earn it.

And I know that comment is going to piss everyone off, but I really couldn't give two turds. It's true, and I'd like to see anyone provide any argument OTHER than "well, The Long Winters are condoning it by offering whole shows on their site, so it's OK by me." I'm sure if John and the boys publically stated they were communist, everyone would be voting for the Communist party in the upcoming election. And yes, again I'm being bitterly sarcastic and hyperbolic. Don't take it personally, anyone. It's fan-syndrome: fans of bands who support MP3s love MP3s; fans of bands who don't support MP3s hate them (or at least won't admit to loving them on said band's message board). People imitate their heros: how many people of this generation would know a single song by the Pixies if all the bands playing currently hadn't listed them as a tremendous influence? I can assure you the Pixies wouldn't have had reason to reunite and do a national arena tour, that's for sure.

But I'm getting off topic. The extent of the above paragraph is just to ask people to think for themselves and not settle for a) habit, b) convienience, or c) what the band themselves like/are content with.

Personally, I don't have the ear to distinguish great from merely good quality
Do you have lossless qualities of live shows? I'm just wondering...

nor really the desire to learn about all these files, how to apply them to a mac.
You wouldn't need to if you were part of the Snail Mail community rather than the Lossless Online trading community. Which will overlap--SM traders wouldn't not get anything online traders would.

And I dont like licking stamps; they are gross.

The post office has a roll-on glue that they will put on the back of stamps for you.

But I do like listening to a whole show in continuity.
I'd argue it's not really in continuity if there's those pesky second-long (or even two second long) gaps between tracks that you get with MP3s. But that's a personal preference. I also don't like watching movies where commercials interrupt the flow of the narrative, but once again...just me!

Yes, you've put time, money and passion into your work and there are people who just don't care.
Than why would I, as a taper, have any interest in letting these people reap the benefits of my time, money and passion silently? And without arguement? If they don't care, they don't get. I don't mind stuffing my recordings in a box and being the only person to hear them...but I think music (especially live music) is about sharing and getting it out to the people. I'm not necessarily interested in doing it in the most "efficient and easy" way, however. I'm interested in doing it in a way that the taper is rewarded for his efforts. In a way that ensures the Long Winters CONTINUE to be taped, and that ensures there'll still be live shows to be had.

Or do they just grab thier mp3's, look at some pics, check the tour dates, and go on thier way?
They do, but they don't ask for the entire albums' catalogue of MP3s, or entire photo sessions worth of pictures (outtakes included!), do they? They are content with the portions they are given. I'm asking live recordings be given the same consideration.

I hope my point is getting clearer as I continue to respond in this thread?

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Postby Unremarkable » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:31 pm

The "tapers" you describe sound like really big assholes to me. I shouldn't be living in the fear of upsetting the holy tapers, who's recorded shows are something we should pay tribute for. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when people record shows of bands I love, but why should you or they care if someone hacks up their recording? You have the good copy! What was the point of you recording the show in the first place? I have recorded more than a few shows, and I did it FOR MY OWN ENJOYMENT. Yes, later on I burned those shows and traded them to people, but the main reason was for my personal pleasure. The people I traded the copies to could shit all over them for all I care. I don't give a fuck if they rip it into mp3s 20 times over, it's no business of mine.

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Postby grant » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:33 am

the new math wrote:to paraphrase what larry crane often says,


Hear, hear. God bless Larry Crane! And God bless his publication!

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Postby sour29 » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:17 am

Unremarkable wrote:Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when people record shows of bands I love, but why should you or they care if someone hacks up their recording?


Key word is high-lighted. It is their recording, and as such, they should have some say in what is done with it.

They never actually get to, mind you. People will do with it as they want. But it's like if your painter friend gave you a print of one of his pieces. Do you draw fake moustaches and Satan ears on the painting? You could--the print is in your possession--but you shouldn't.

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Postby the new math » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:25 am

if you were to tell me not to post something (i had performed) that you had recorded because you didn't want it ripped to mp3s, i would probably laugh in your face and then have a chat with you about artist rights. what you seem to be forgetting in all of this is that its about the BAND, not the tapers. as a taper if you don't like the way a certain fanbase distributes a bands live recordings then you have the option of not participating. but like i said before, there is a demand for these recordings and if you don't do it someone else will. i can guarantee that.

making fans "earn" live recordings? you've got to be kidding. don't even get me started about elitism in indie rock, it happens enough already without tapers getting involved. if you want to be compensated for your efforts, and resent the fact that people can just right click and save, you might want to think about getting out of a community that is fanbased and non profit. again, this is about bands and their music, not some REALLY strict rules that matter to a few guys whose speakers are taller than their dresser.

now you've just got me angry with your rhetoric about the taping community, how it's so fragile, and how mp3s are destroying it. i think mp3s are CHANGING it, but not destroying it. if i were you i'd be more worried about emusic.com or clear channel, companies that are actively recording and then subsequently selling these recordings, destroying the taping community than this little ol' message board.

i have to go get pastry and enjoy new york. sorry if this post offends, but i'm offended now. you needn't have a degree in audio production or engineering to tape or listen to taped music. it should be easy and readily available, especially for the fans in BFE who couldn't make it to the show.

what if as an artist, i made it HARDER for you to get studio recordings? seems like shooting myself in the foot.

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Postby stephanie » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:30 am

the new math wrote:this is about bands and their music, not some REALLY strict rules that matter to a few guys whose speakers are taller than their dresser.


HERE, HERE.

Shit, M. That's the first thing that's made sense to me out of this whole spiel. Cheers.

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Postby hovering » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:40 am

stephanie wrote:
the new math wrote:this is about bands and their music, not some REALLY strict rules that matter to a few guys whose speakers are taller than their dresser.


HERE, HERE.

Shit, M. That's the first thing that's made sense to me out of this whole spiel. Cheers.




dude, same here.
all I know is sometimes I either a) am not able to see a band live because they do not venture anywhere within my city (ahem, THE LONG WINTERS, I am driving 400 miles to see you) and b) I could never really tell if something is a .shn or .flac or .wav or .mp3, because I am not inclined to that sort of thing.
I think the bottom line is.. we're all here for the same thing. the music, the rock and roll. let's just enjoy that, shall we?

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Postby sour29 » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:42 am

the new math wrote:if you were to tell me not to post something (i had performed) that you had recorded because you didn't want it ripped to mp3s, i would probably laugh in your face and then have a chat with you about artist rights.
That's fine. You'd have every right to. I was just wondering where the band stood on the matter.

what you seem to be forgetting in all of this is that its about the BAND, not the tapers...there is a demand for these recordings and if you don't do it someone else will. i can guarantee that.
No, I'm not forgetting that. What I am saying is that in the equation BAND + TAPER = RECORDING, the taper is a pretty important figure. If you don't encourage tapers, you just have BAND.

don't even get me started about elitism in indie rock
It's not elitism if everyone is welcomed and encouraged to participate in it.

if you want to be compensated for your efforts, and resent the fact that people can just right click and save, you might want to think about getting out of a community that is fanbased and non profit.

What I want is to get more music out there. It has nothing to do with profit.

not some REALLY strict rules
One rule. No/minimal lossless compression. Doesn't seem strict or unreasonable to me.

i think mp3s are CHANGING it, but not destroying it.

MP3s have had their chance to change it, but failed DUE to it's lossy nature. That's why people are developing SHN, FLAC, and even Windows is jumping ship with the WMA Lossless format. MP3s aren't going to be around in two or three years. Probably, SHN and FLAC won't either. Whatever format will reign, it will be more than likely be lossless.

if i were you i'd be more worried about emusic.com or clear channel, companies that are actively recording and then subsequently selling these recordings, destroying the taping community than this little ol' message board.
i'm less worried about them, though, because they make the shows available on CD--a lossless format. which encourages lossless trading, which is my primary interest here.

i have to go get pastry and enjoy new york. sorry if this post offends, but i'm offended now...it should be easy and readily available.
I hope you do enjoy New York. I've always wanted to go there, myself. And I'm sorry to have offended you. Wasn't my intent, but we have different points of view on the subject matter. I'm sharing mine, and you're sharing yours. And you seem to be misinterpreting my meaning: there are other ways of making music, especially live music, easy and readily available (without 'elitism') than MP3.

what if as an artist, i made it HARDER for you to get studio recordings? seems like shooting myself in the foot.
but you're not offering complete studio recordings in MP3. In fact, if I wanted to purchase another copy of your album, I would have to go to the post office and mail a money order to Barsuk.

I don't intend to be angering anyone, or being overly offensive. I'm just trying to get a (seemingly and needlessly radical) point of view across. One that's experienced in live music trading and taping.

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Postby Merlin » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:56 am

Sour29, I feel like you've done nothing *but* make your point over and over. I get it. You've made your case and answered every objection. You've covered every angle thoroughly and shown yourself to be a knowledgeable and passionate fan.

But, in fairness, are you hearing what *anyone else* is saying, except in as much as it becomes a platform for your next post?

I really feel like people have been very respectful of your points and gone to great ends to ensure that whatever this ends up being does as little avoidable damage as possible.

My fear is that this canard will not be dropped until you feel like you've achieved some kind of total victory--that everyone, as one, says "you're right and I'm wrong" and throws a parade where you ride around in a convertible.

I might be offbase here, but jeez, where the hell is this all going? There's going to be songs, they're going to be freely available, and they'll be distributed however the band thinks is best. Anyone else remains free to do anything they want.

So how much more is there to go back and forth about before we can move on?

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Postby Liesbeth » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:46 am

aj wrote:my point was that you can ask for other's opinions, but why shut someone down?

that's a valid point, I suppose, and a more positive approach than mine
and I'll have you know, I've never before (EVER ...that I can remember) shouted 1st Amendment or used that in the annoying way I did earlier (typed with a smile).

and you had the grace to end the sentence with Long Winters, which is always good for a smile, or two

Oh, and sorry to go back to one more thing that was said in this discussion: if only the band would give advice on whether to vote communist or not! Today I had to go and vote for European elections, and could have done with some guidance. I think I will go and listen to some BRiAN WiLSON now.

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Postby the new math » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:05 am

dear sour29,

if trading is relegated to ONE certain set of standards, based on what you think may or may be good for taping, that qualifies as elitism in my book. you are encouraging participation based on how you think it should be done, not participation in general. i appreciate that you care so much about what you care about, but not everyone has the same standards and desires in live trading as you. you can't expect people that have found live songs/sets posted on sites to have to go find the proper codecs and then figure out how to install them just so they can hear a few live songs of a band that couldn't make it to their neck of the woods. that is such a narrow viewpoint in the scheme of things and if i were looking at it from a tapers viewpoint, it would seem that in order to increase the number of people i reach with recorded live shows i would try and make it as easy as possible to obtain. again, if i follow your logic, the long winters should only release records formatted for SACD.

you seem completely unwilling to accept the fact that we can really do without you as a taper. i have never met a taper as obtusely passionate about your concerns as you. band-taper = band. taper - band = blank tape. the equation doesn't work both ways. most of the tapers i have met are very humble and gracious about being allowed to record, a luxury that many bands stricly forbid. and i've never heard of a band breaking up or quitting because of a lack of taper support. your self importance in this matter is most unwelcome. i encourage taping on the whole and would hope that you continue to tape and trade, but imposing the rules and guidelines of YOUR community on OUR community isn't how it works. this thread has devolved from an open discussion about what to do about web based trading to a personal crusade against the local majority by you.

as far as offering complete recordings in a compressed format, see iTUNES. most of the barsuk catalog is online, including both long winters records.

good luck with your endeavors, i wish you the best.

and again, in case i didn't make myself totally clear, these opinions are MINE and don't really reflect the rest of the band. they will surely state their position in due time.

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Postby hovering » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:18 am

may god bless you, mr. schorr.

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Postby chelsea » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:40 pm

this thread is really starting to remind me of the shit that went on at the "all bands not weezer" board that i frequented before i started posting here more. the fucking elitism got to me and i could no longer handle it. that's why i love this board so much. no attitudes. can we please keep it that way?

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Postby meg » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:55 pm

Once upon a time I heard some music and it made my life different and I didn't flerking care that it was music I listened to on a streched-out Maxell Type I.

(Also, once upon a time I met some people on the internet and they made my life different and I didn't flerking care that I had a 14.4 connection and a shady sub-Pentium processor.)

I used to bootleg Broadway shows. True. I used to just hit record on a $20 tape recorder I'd purchased from Sears. The red light was covered with duct tape and the recordings were always scratchy because my purse would scrape the mic. Eventually I bought myself an MD and some better-quality mics. Not long after that purchase, I stopped recording because I never had time to listen to my recordings. So the bootlegs I listened to the most were those crap recordings from my first stumbling, tape-flipping days.

The most devoted taper I know records on a tape recorder and a Radio Shack mic. She sings really loudly during shows and her recordings are almost unlistenable because of it. But she archives them all and listens to them all the time. She goes nuts for it and it's sort of wonderful.

There's a fine line between community, fanbase, and cult.

The best way to bridge the lines is to provide comfortable forums. This message board has been successful because it is a comfortable forum. It has a slim rulebook, but nothing truly imposed -- cruise through Cattywampus, how many of those threads interest 100% of the people here? Probably none. It's a comfortable forum. A playground. A beach with a few lifeguards and an understanding that we all gathered here for a reason.

Now, if one wanted to create an audiophiliac community, that would be awesome. But to impose that on a pre-existing community is confusing to the community. It says, hey, group of people who gathered here to like Thing A, YOU HAD BETTER ALSO LIKE THING Q! And maybe they don't.

I don't know.

That's how I feel today.

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Postby Merlin » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:01 pm

[risks jumping the gun...]

I don't know if this is the right place to do it but I would like to extend a hand to sour29 (as well as his ninja taper posse) and suggest all the other kids consider the same. [extends hand]

It's been a very special Blossom and I think we've all learned a lesson about love. The tent is big and other metaphors, etc. etc.

I say we sing Kum By Ya by the merch table and thrust the horns of rock as one.

What do you say, gang? My Dad's got a barn!

Sour29...don't leave me hanging. I'm waiting to pour a virtual beer on our heads.

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Postby LngHrvWntrsDngr » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:06 pm

yeah, why can't we all just be friends?...I mean how many people come to this board to argue about how wonderful a recording sounds other than to give props to the guys who wrote the songs and jammed? regardless of all yall's feelings, it's all about the band, and I for one trust the band to do the right thing...because no matter whos tape its on, it's their music.

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Postby meg » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:12 pm

Heh-heh. Big tent.

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Postby Merlin » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:29 pm

meg wrote:Heh-heh. Big tent.

Mmmm...dick jokes

The pride is back!

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Postby Laura Suzanne » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:50 pm

Wow. Until now i have been mainly sitting back and
watching this conversation unfold, because i am not
into taping, and i can't offer much to the discussion.
What i have seen is a little terrifying, actually. i am
in camp, "if TLW are willing to post shows on the net,
i will take them any way i can get them" and i will do
so gratefully. i really like it here. i like all of you.
It is SO NICE to have a community where my tastes
are understood, and i very much hope that this doesn't
change. So, i agree that we should all smile pretty,
make nice. It's not worth it to do otherwise.


End of sermon.


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